Alex Ooley (00:00)
Welcome back to the Forge of Freedom podcast. This is the last day that we are broadcasting here from the NRA annual meeting in Atlanta from the voices of the Second Amendment. And today we have our first guest with us. It's Glenn Hoyer. Glenn Hoyer is the director of the law enforcement division at the NRA. And he has actually had quite a busy weekend here. He's been presenting quite a few seminars, including on a topic that we're going to get into a little bit here today.

and that is how the armed citizen should interact with law enforcement. Glenn, welcome to Forge of Freedom. Thank you very much. I very much appreciate you having me here. It has been a very hectic weekend, but we've made time to get together and I'm very happy about it. Yeah, well, I appreciate that you did take the time. I know you've got at least two more seminars later today. Yes, I did. we're going to get into one of those just a little bit. If you would, before we get into the main subject of our conversation, tell us a little bit about

who you are, how you got connected with the NRA, and how you eventually got into your current position as director of the law enforcement division at NRA. I'm a career law enforcement officer. I retired from the Lexington County Sheriff's Office in South Carolina, which is located near the state capital of Columbia. I worked for some other agencies prior to my 20 plus years with Lexington County. I retired as a captain. I did about every job you can do in law enforcement, including 10 years on the SWAT team.

canine handler, worked my way up through the ranks. And, you know, as nice as it sounds being a captain of ranking officer, a couple of years of that and the retirement came about and I said, this is a good time to get out. So I began with the NRA in the mid 1990s as a part-time law enforcement firearm instructor. And then from there, when I retired, I came full-time as the training manager and a short while later was promoted to division director.

I've been happy ever since. NRA is a great organization. They truly back the blue and I'm happy to be a part of it. As a matter of fact, we were talking ⁓ pre-show here that the NRA since the 1960s, I believe, has had a law enforcement division and has trained tens of thousands of law enforcement instructors and even today has over 10,000 law enforcement instructors. that... That is absolutely correct. ⁓ The NRA is

history with law enforcement actually started about 1915. And that was when the NRA has been around since 1871. And they realized that law enforcement wasn't getting the training that they felt they should have. So around 1915, they did a survey, found out law enforcement firearms training just wasn't what it should be. Back then it was, you're hired, here's your badge, here's your gun. You know, let's go out there and get criminals. So they...

put a program together and recommended agencies follow it. And so that's what actually started it. There was a time during World War II that it actually fell a little bit into the shadows. Then it came back in the 1950s and started growing. But the NRA officially began certifying firearms instructors for law enforcement in the early 1960s, actually 1960 to be exact.

And as part of that, we would bless other people's training. And so as we would bless the training, was something they received elsewhere. We'd review the curriculum to go that solid, give them a law enforcement certification from NRA. And so two years later, we started a competition side to law enforcement as they realized that it takes a lot of time and money to train. Hey, if we got the officers interested in competing on their own,

that is also training on their own. 1962 began our National Police Revolver Championships, which through the years morphed into the National Police Shooting Championships, which still exist today. So there's a long history with it in the mid 1970s. We went from being a program within the training departments to its own division of the NRA's Law Enforcement Division, where it's been growing ever since.

Well, it makes sense and I'm glad that the NRA is engaged in law enforcement training efforts because it really it's consistent with the NRA's foundational ⁓ principles, The NRA was founded as a training organization. So it just makes sense that not only would they be engaged in ordinary civilian training, but also civilian law enforcement training. Absolutely. We were founded to train members of the military after the Civil War.

and that's where it got its roots was firearms training for law enforcement and military, excuse me, military then into law enforcement. And still today, ⁓ our division trains law enforcement to include licensed private security that's armed and the military. ⁓ Believe it or not, the military does come to us for a lot of training started just before Desert Storm, I believe it was two in 2001.

and has been solid with us ever since. And that seems kind of strange to some people. Why would military come to law enforcement training? And I had a Marine Corps major. I received a call from a sergeant in the Marine Corps, and he says, my commander wanted me to call you and book all of these training classes. I said, okay. We need them as soon as possible. We'll be deploying soon. We need our instructors.

And I said, we've got no problem with this, but this just seems a little odd, the military wanting the law enforcement training. A typical Marine said, sir, I just follow orders. And I said, no, I got that. I got that. My son's a Marine. I said, all understood. I said, could I talk to your commander, which was a major. And I asked him, I said, we're more than happy to help you. I said, but I'm just kind of got a disconnect of how did you look to us for your military training?

And he had the best quote and he goes, years ago, our mission was to bomb a mountain to oblivion and then run over and kill who's ever left standing. That's what the military did, particularly the Marines and et cetera. goes, that's no longer today. Today we are going to be fighting house to house, room to room. We're basically doing what American law enforcement does every day.

We can only engage the bad guys and not hurt the civilians or the good guys. And who better to help us train that way than NRA law enforcement? And I said, I'm stealing that forever. The battlefield has certainly changed. But I wanted to talk about this a little bit because one thing that we're both NRA instructors, Mike and I, and one of the things that people often overlook about the NRA is the significant effort.

⁓ and the foundation that the NRA has in training. Most people when they think of the NRA, they think of their lobbying arm, right? The ILA and they think of basically the NRA being in DC and making efforts to expand or protect the right to keep and bear arms. starting out and still today, a significant portion of what the NRA does is training. You are exactly correct.

⁓ Our political branch, is obviously necessary, they've been fighting for our gun rights for so long and being very effective in it. And even though we have a current president that's very friendly to firearm ownership and self-defense and a congress as well, you still can never step back and breathe that sigh of relief because what is the next administration going to be like? So our political branch, ILA, ILA

certainly keeps us in the headlines. And the NRA has well over 150 programs that we do with various things. ⁓ Our counterpart to the law enforcement firearms instructor training is the civilian education and training. And that's what most people see us as because the law enforcement division only deals directly with law enforcement, again, public and private.

as well as the military and then the competition is an extension of that. We also provide other assistance to law enforcement, but it is the political venue that keeps us in the headlines and so people just don't know about the programs. well, so I'm glad that we got to chat about that a little bit because I think the more people that know that the NRA is a diverse, it has a diverse set of efforts and initiatives and one of those, probably, I wouldn't say the best, but,

one of the great initiatives that it has is training and ⁓ encouraging responsible armed citizenship. Absolutely. because I mean after all the right, the Second Amendment right is inextricably linked to responsible exercise of that right. So it's not two separate missions. It's really in my mind one mission. Yes, exactly. Second Amendment. Agreed. So with that being said, let's get into the meat of the topic for today. You've one of the

topics that you're presenting on a few times this weekend at the NRA Annual Meeting is the seminar is called Armed Citizen How to Interact with Law Enforcement. And I want to get into that a little bit. In fact, you're presenting, if anybody is here in Atlanta that's watching online, you're presenting on that one more time today at 1230 to 130 here at the NRA Annual Meeting. So be sure to go and check that out if you're here and you have some interest in that.

I want to get into it a little bit. spoke with Jacob Paulson, who's the president of Concealed Carry dot com yesterday about a survey he conducted about law enforcement interactions at traffic stops. So I want to talk a little bit about that, but I want to get into more broadly law enforcement interactions with citizens, ⁓ not just at traffic stops. How should people, citizens, think about law enforcement interaction?

One of the things that I like to do in the presentation as well as in conversations like we're having is to try to put the armed citizen, the good guy with the gun, in the frame of mind of what is it like to be a law enforcement officer and what are they, the law enforcement officers, concerns with, if there are any, with dealing with a good guy with a gun. And I usually open up

presentation with a simple question to the audience. Take a moment here and think about what is a bad guy look like in your mind. If you're walking down the street and you see someone and you look at them and go, ⁓ this is a bad guy. This is someone who could hurt me or kill me or rob me. What does that person look like? And just take that moment and think about it. After a few seconds, I'll go, okay.

Everyone here, if you thought of a white female, 27, 28 years of age, soccer mom, mother to raise your hand, I get no hands, clearly. Whatever their concept of a bad guy was, that wasn't it. And I say, that's who I have been in a gunfight with. And I said, so from a law enforcement perspective, if a soccer mom...

You know, white female, two kids driving a minivan type of soccer mom would want to shoot it out with law enforcement. How do we know what to look for? We have to be cautious of everybody. And the most important thing is you, the good guy with the gun, would probably come to an aid of an officer if he needed it. But how does the officer know who you are? The mindset is, I'm a good guy with a gun.

everybody should know this when in fact nobody knows it. I also mentioned the fact that in the law enforcement circles, unfortunately, every year we have several law enforcement officers shot or killed by fellow officers. So if we're having a tough time, you know, discerning, this is a fellow officer who may be undercover, off duty, whatever, and we're having a difficult time understanding

I'm the good guy with the gun as a law enforcement officer undercover or off duty. They forget to properly identify themselves to uniformed officers and that's how the blue on blue as we call it shootings occur. So the good guy with the gun has a lot to think about. They know they're a good guy with a gun the same way the off duty undercover officer knows I'm a law enforcement guy with a gun. These uniform guys should know it. No, no, they don't know it. So.

That's what we have to deal with. That's what we need to convey to the good citizens out there carrying firearms that either get involved in an incident or we come to the aid of a law enforcement. So they need to understand how to approach law enforcement, how to deal with it. The first thing you mentioned was a traffic stop. And that's probably the most common encounter that a good guy with a gun would have. And in some states like

Virginia, even though I'm a retired law enforcement, I can carry under the law enforcement officer safety act concealed nationwide. I still have a Virginia concealed carry permit. There's several reasons for it. I have been stopped by law enforcement. One time I was driving extremely slow past a congested area and there was a concert going on. So the officer stopped me thinking I was drunk because I was still going slow. I said, no, I haven't had a thing to drink. But so

Even though I'm a fellow law enforcement officer and retired at the time, obviously, I gave that officer approaching my car the courtesy. Now in Virginia, when he would either on the mobile data terminal, the MDT, indicate a traffic stop with my tag number, it would indicate to him that I'm a concealed carry holder. Some people go, I don't like that. Why does the government need to know that? Well, personally, as a retired cop, I'm glad he knew that.

He didn't know I was a retired officer. He just knew I had a permit. So it's dark. The typical lights behind you officers, high beam headlights are on spotlight through the back window of my car. I turn on the dome light, put my hands palm up on the steering wheel. I am conveying upon initial contact. I mean you no harm. I am showing them my hands are empty because the hands are where the threats would come from, whether it be a gun, a knife.

one instrument, so hands palm up on the steering wheel. I would also suggest that if you have passengers in the front seat or the back, they also place palms up. Again, you're conveying to the officer approaching the car, traffic stops particularly at night are extremely dangerous to the officer. You're conveying cooperation. I mean you no harm. Now an officer who walks up and sees this will have a couple of thoughts. A.

This is a fellow law enforcement officer who wants to let me know I mean no harm. B, it is a good citizen who's been to a class like this on how to interact with law enforcement. Or C, the other possibility, it's a criminal who's been through this and he wants to make sure that he doesn't get drug out the car, he didn't put in jail. So either way, you're indicating cooperation. The other thing that I really emphasize hard is when the officer approaches, it's a traffic stop.

you've done something to get their attention, whether it's a traffic violation or my case driving slow, they thought I was intoxicated. Let them know right off the bat that, hey, officer, in my case, I'm a retired law enforcement officer and I am armed. What would you like me to do? To the armed good guy citizen with the gun, that is really critical to say, officer, I have a concealed carry permit and I'm armed.

you know, got my firearm on my hip in my purse, whatever the case may be. What would you like me to do? And is that your advice, whether or not you're in a state that has a duty to inform the officer? Yes, because even though in the state I retired from South Carolina, you must upon initial contact, notify the officer that you have a carry permit and whether or not you're armed. And even in Virginia where that isn't, but it comes up on the MDT that

this is a concealed carry holder, why not offer it up? You're not doing anything illegal with the firearm, least I hope you're not. You're conveying compliance, you mean no harm, palms up in the steering wheel, you're telling them, I am a concealed carry holder and I am armed, even if it's not a concealed carry state, let's say it's a state where you could open carry and whatever, you're still conveying, I want no problem. I'm a good guy, I'm on your side.

then just say, what would you like me to do? In a graphic I put up during this portion of the presentation, I will have an officer from a Northeast major city. And I intentionally picked that photograph because if you're, let's say hypothetically in New York City and you're stopped and you're armed, that's not common. New York gives out very few permits. So the reaction of an officer from New York.

and you say, I'm armed, I have a permit, I have my firearm on me, what would you like me to do? Their reaction is probably gonna be different than it would be in Georgia or South Carolina, where people with guns, very popular. Same thing with Texas and the other states in the Midwest and West. So, there's gonna be different reactions, but you are indicating every step of the way. I mean you no harm, I'm armed, I'm telling you.

telling you where my firearm is at, what would you like me to do? In a case like that, if I was the officer making the stop, I'd say, that's very good. If it's on your right hip, I need your driver's license, where is it at? it's in my right rear pocket. Okay. In my personal situation, I would be very cautious, obviously, because we still don't know what we're dealing with, but would say, if you would slowly reach back, get your wallet, come up with two fingers, open it, give it to

I know some officers may be a little more nervous and upon the area of the country. They may ask you to step out. They may ask you to place the firearm in the trunk while you're conducting business with them, which from a law enforcement perspective, we feel that's very reasonable. I know some folks out there may say, my God, you know, you shouldn't have to do that. Well, again, you're the good guy with the gun. You're wanting to cooperate. This is for officer safety, your safety as well. If they ask that, just.

Yes, sir or yes, ma'am, let's do this. What if they ask you, so this is an interesting point that I'd like to get your take on. So we talked to, like I said, Jacob Paulson yesterday, he conducted this survey that asked a number of armed citizens who had been stopped by law enforcement, how that interaction happened and what they did and ⁓ what the officer did, et cetera. And on a few occasions, I believe it was, I don't remember the exact percentage, but it was not an insignificant percentage. ⁓

officer asked the armed citizen to hand over the firearm. ⁓ What would you recommend in that scenario? It's not common, but it does happen. ⁓ Me personally as the officer, I would not ask for that piece. Now you're inviting them to put hands on it. Right. And the officer should rethink if they ask that and just say, would you mind stepping out? Let's place it in the trunk or the cargo area of your vehicle.

during this traffic stop. For an officer to handle the firearm, again, you're asking the person who you're not familiar with to grab it and hand it to you. If it's a bad guy, things could go really south really fast if it's a bad guy acting like a good guy with a gun. ⁓ Just last Tuesday, last week, I believe it was.

In Fairfax County, Virginia, where NRA headquarters is, about three miles away from our headquarters, two Fairfax County officers were shot on a traffic stop. And the guy was open carrying a firearm when they approached the car. They were doing speeding enforcement in an area that had a lot of complaints. He bust through at an excessive speed. When they pull out to stop him, slams on the brakes very quickly, according to the initial reports.

It's an indicator something's wrong. People stop. Sometimes they stop a little quickly, but the manner in which their chief described this, it was almost an aggressive quickly stop. And so the officers were cautious as they approached. The guy was indignant. From the very start of things to the point they called for additional units, a more seasoned officer came up on the passenger side.

The original two officers were on the driver's side and they would tell him we need your license. No, I'm not going to give it to you. I mean completely belligerent, uncooperative, downright nasty. And finally he started reaching towards the firearm and they're telling him no, no, no, no, no. He grabs it, pulls it up, shoots them both, hits them in one each in each arm.

and the officer on the driver's side then fired in self-defense of all three officers and killed him. So, as you can see, traffic stops can go bad. Clearly, I don't know what this guy's problem was, if he's a career criminal or what, but no cooperation from the start, excuse me. But they were telling him not to reach for it, and he did. Clearly, it was threatening because he shot two of them.

So again, I kind of questioned the officers to rethink their tactics of please hand me the firearm. But again, my preferred method is let's step out, let's place it in the trunk. But in that situation, you can say, I suppose, officer, I'd rather not put my hand on the firearm during our interaction. And that would be a very good thing. Again, you're showing compliance. Officer, I want to help you.

I want to put you at ease and say, officer, I'd rather not grab my firearm in the car, even though you told me to. It's not bad thought for the good guy with the gun to say, could we step to the back of the car? And I put it in the trunk. again, you're offering up compliance. And most officers should go with that. And again, I'm not knocking the officers to say, could you hand me the gun? ⁓ You look at a Terry search, as you two as attorneys understand it.

similar thing. Personally, I would not want to reach in the car to take the firearm from them, particularly if they have it in a holster. ⁓ I would say, let's step out of the car, step to the rear. May I remove the firearm and place it in the trunk during this encounter? Again, if everyone's got the right attitude, the officer is familiar with good guys with guns.

and hopefully the good citizen is not going to, well, I have a right to be armed. Yes, no one's arguing that. We're just looking at officer safety as well as your safety. We don't want any miscommunications. And again, things are much easier in a lot of the country, but when concealed carry first started and officers weren't familiar with it, again, like the officers in the Northeast.

When they see a gun on a person, they don't think, ⁓ thank God there's a good guy with a gun who would help me if something bad was happening. They're thinking criminal because that's all that's allowed to have it. modern law enforcement does have to shift gears a little bit and understand that, there are good guys out there with a gun. And a lot of them will come to the aid of an officer. I sometimes tell the story in the presentation that, you know,

I've had late night traffic stops in a more rural part of the county and you end up wrestling with the trunk on the side of the road when suddenly you would hear a car stop suddenly and a shotgun racking and you hear them going, hey officer roll out the way, I'll get him. And you're going, no, no, no, no, we're not there, no. So, know, good guys with guns, they want to help law enforcement, but they have to understand what a law enforcement officer goes through.

If a soccer mom can try to kill me, anyone can. So they have to understand what the officer's anxiety and protection level is. Try to put yourself in the shoes of the officer. That is the crux of it. think Mike has a comment here. I mean the message to me based upon what you're saying is this is a dynamic situation and we have a responsibility to keep the calm as well. Exactly. To make sure both of us go home safely.

Because you mentioned, like I said, the seasoned officer. You don't know this officer, maybe his third traffic stop. So you've got to help him keep the adrenaline level down and let's do this right. And the other thing too that I see from time to time, sometimes officers will give conflicting directions. we got to make sure we understand that, what they want us to do. I like the fact that you said that because one of the examples I give

is if you've had to defend yourself, law enforcement has responded. If you still have the gun in your hand when the officers arrive, that's a bad thing. But if you were challenged, the typical challenge is police don't move. You're identifying yourself and you're given a command. Now that can vary around. I was with the sheriff's office. You know, we would still use police don't move.

but it could be sheriff don't move or sheriff's office don't move. There could be variants of it, but if you remember the movie Raising Arizona, great comedy from what, late 80s, early 90s, the bank robbery scene. The two doofuses bad guy walk in to rob the bank and the one screams, it's a robbery, get down on the floor.

The other one screams right about the same time, don't move. And so the older gentleman has his hands up and goes, well, you need to figure out what you want us to do because if we're getting down on the floor, we're moving. And he said, don't move. That is exactly what can happen, particularly if different jurisdictions may respond because you may have the city police and a sheriff's deputy arrive and

One may be trained to say, you know, don't move, the other get down. ⁓ And my advice to the good guy with the gun who's had to defend himself.

hands up and say, what would you like me to do? And if they repeat conflicting commands, do you want me to get down or not move? Hopefully at that time, the two officers will sink in their commands and one will take over. It should be only one issued command so you don't get conflicting commands. But enough- Be sure to clarify what you're being told to do. Because again, one said don't move, then you suddenly start to move.

that could result in a bad situation. By the same token, you're confused. So, you know, ask for clarification. You know, you're already in a bad situation. Unfortunately, their miscommunication made it a little worse. And the other big question I'll get during the presentation is a lot of elderly people, and there'll be at least one that will go, I have a bad knee and it doesn't bend.

parts very hard to bend. What do do? My advice is hands up, indicate that you're trying to get down and then tell them I can't kneel. I've had knee surgery. It doesn't bend. But to stand there and say it doesn't give the full effect of literally trying to show that you can't get the kneeling position. That's something the officer will have to compensate with.

So let's get into, we talked a little bit about the traffic stop. Let's get into the situation where the armed citizen has engaged in an act of self-defense. What should they consider in that situation when interacting with law enforcement? I want to get to the question eventually of how, whether or not you advise people to talk to law enforcement once they've You want to break down, you want to talk about the 911 call or post-911? I think both. Let's talk about the 911 call.

whether or not they should stay on the line and then what they should do immediately upon arrival of the law enforcement.

You've been involved in a self-defense shooting and one of first things to consider is your location. Yes, you should call 911 if at all possible. And at the same time, you've had a threat. Is the threat still there but down? Could the threat, you know, come back? ⁓ I give a quick example of in California, I believe in the 1990s.

May have been Riverside, but I'm not quite sure. Bad guy engages with the police. Big gunfight, bad guy runs off. Search is underway. They find him dead in a drainage ditch near the interstate. During the autopsy, the guy had been shot 19 times by law enforcement. His cause of death was drowning.

from the drainage ditch. So this tells you shot does not mean incapacitated. ⁓ I've seen people shot multiple times and still want to fight. I've also seen people that have a peripheral gunshot wound and drop like a hammer from shock. So, but you have to be prepared that your threat could reanimate, but at the same time you've got to get help. Call 911.

If you're in an area where there's a lot of people, chances are the switchboard at the call center for 911 is lit up like a Christmas tree, but you still want to be one of the callers. You need to let them know your location as best you can. Sometimes under stress, you just can't think. And so do the best you can. I'm here in the 7-Eleven parking lot at the corner of Main and First.

There's been a shooting. Someone tried to kill me. I defended myself. There is conflicting advice and I am giving from the law enforcement perspective. There are some people that will say, well, I was told by an attorney you call you say there's a shooting and then you hang up because you don't want to say anything on the recorded line and they are recorded. That could cause me problems later in court. That's understood. Yeah, I mean, I completely understand that.

Let's put the law enforcement hat on. You've just been involved in a shooting where you've had to shoot or possibly kill someone. You're terrified. You've never been through this before. You're very nervous. You want help. If you call, as soon as they get the basic information, even while you're talking to them, they're on the keyboard, either dispatching MDT or the radio, they're sending you law enforcement.

If you tell them it's a shooting, they're going to automatically roll medical. But if you hang up at this point, this looks very suspicious to the call center and they're going to relay it to the responding officers. The caller just hung up. They will try to reengage by calling you back. Numbers are captured. If you're on the phone with somebody else and they can't get through or you don't answer.

what is now going to be communicated to the responding officers. We cannot reach the caller. In the current time with Defund the Police, Antifa, all the other groups out there that are so viciously anti-law enforcement, these officers responding are gonna think this is a setup, this is an ambush. If you stay on the phone with the call center, you don't have to give them more information.

And if they ask, well, what happened? And that's a pretty common question the call center would ask. You can easily say, I don't want to talk about that. I just need help here. And please describe yourself. You know, in my case, an older gentleman dashingly handsome, you know, wearing a two-piece suit, tell them what you look like because there will be a lot of confusion there. There can be a group gathered, witnesses.

It could be any number of things or it could be a rare occasion where there's no one around, but you need to tell them what you look like and you're the good guy with the gun. Additionally, if you're concerned, the bad guy is still there, could get up, could be a problem. You want to protect yourself so you have your firearm in your hand. But at the same time, you don't want to have it in your hand when law enforcement gets there.

that's a horrible situation. If you are still on the phone communicating with the call center, then you may hear the sirens go, okay, I hear the sirens. You know, they're getting close or they can tell you, do you hear sirens? The officers are almost there. Again, keep communicating when they say the officers will be there in a minute or 30 seconds. At that time, a lot of times people will say reholster.

Personally, I would prefer they set the gun on the ground ahead of them and then put the phone on speaker, raise your hands. You do not want to appear to be a threat to the arriving officers. They've got possibly multiple calls. Someone could have called and said, you're the bad guy. They saw you shoot someone, but they don't know why. So you want no confusion. ⁓ To reholster is not a horrible thing.

But keep in mind law enforcement trains extensively to reholster without looking, know, present reholster. If they're arresting a bad guy, they had to take him at gunpoint. They now have him dealt down hands behind the head. They need to be able to walk up, grab the hands, keep their eyes on the suspect while reholstering, get their handcuffs up and subdue them. A lot of times citizens don't practice the reholstering or they may have a

know, appendix carry holster that's a flimsy type, not a rigid. They are very difficult. You got a phone in one hand, how are you going to manipulate? And if you have a striker fired pistol, which is very common today, it doesn't take much. If you snag that trigger, you could accidentally shoot yourself. So you're already nervous when you're nervous, your fine motor skills go. Consider putting it on the ground ahead of you.

phone on speaker, hands in the air. When the officers arrive, if you make visual kind, officer, officer, I'm over here. I'm the one who called, I'm the victim. They tried to hurt me, not making sudden moves. Probably will be asked, where is your firearm? It's on the ground. They will tell you to step away from them, want the separation. there's a lot of things to cover there. ⁓

you're gonna be upset, you're gonna be nervous, the mind tends to blank out, you may have tunnel vision, you may have auditory exclusion, which both are very common under stress. But that's the basic there. Those officers that are responding may be experiencing those same physiological manifestations as well. have to that in mind, right? Yep, absolutely.

I know we're giving the of the Reader's Digest version of the law enforcement interaction here. I just want to give some people some food for thought. And one of the things I'd like to get into here as we wrap up is what's your advice is with respect to what you say to law enforcement after they've arrived, after you've identified yourself as the good person and that you're not a threat. What do you do then? There's this ⁓ widespread advice from the criminal defense bar, especially the...

just don't say anything to the police. But in the training world, there's a little bit more discussion, a diverse to be out what you should do. And again, we give a similar advice to our officers. When an officer is involved in a shooting, they are treated the same way. Clearly, the responding officers to back him up aren't considering their fellow officer a threat to them. But the officer still has the same legal rights as a good guy citizen with a gun. There will be an investigation.

There could be an indictment. ⁓ It's there in the process, just like a civilian citizen would be the good guy with the gun. We need basic information when we we arrive. What happened? It was a traffic stop. I got out of the car. Bad guy jumps out, fires at me. I returned fire. That's all I need to hear. I don't want details from the officer beyond that. That's enough for me.

be able to tell the crime scene crew when they arrive, our crime scene is in this area and secure it, you know, medical help for the subject, you know, remove the officer from the scene, you know, put them in a car. And at that point in time, that officer has the same rights as a citizen would have. You do not have to talk to the detective or any other officers. So when it comes to the citizen, an example I give in my class,

I've arrested a lot of people in a 25 year career. And as you two as attorneys know, when you're the focus of the investigations and the questions are direct to the crime you're investigating, you have to give them a render rights. You know, if there's a shooting, I arrive on the scene and I go, what happened? That's a blanket statement. I'm not focused on anyone individual, et cetera. But in talking with your career criminal, your street criminal,

How many times have I read them their rights and said, I'd like to ask you about so and so, what happened? And you get the answer. I ain't telling you nothing, pig. You know, get out of here. ⁓ It's just not gonna happen. I'm not talking to you, followed by, you know, curse words, et cetera. So I tell them, think about how do you want to politely refuse? And the same thing with traffic stop hands up.

My firearm's here, what do want me to do? Now is where I think that the law enforcement has to investigate. You have rights as a good guy with a gun defending yourself to protection. You need an attorney, you need advice. This is new, it's scary.

But to say, I don't want to talk.

Okay, you don't want to talk. That's your right. But how about if this ends up in court, let's present it in a more, you know, amicable way. ⁓ Officer, I'm terrified right now. I'm very nervous. Nothing like this has ever happened to me before. I think I need an attorney before I say anything. You know, something that understands I want to cooperate, but I'm terrified.

I need my counsel, I need my attorney versus I'm not saying anything till I have an attorney. That's kind of bad guy language, not good guy language. And I, as an officer, would completely understand that. You know, I've dealt with affectionately blue haired old ladies that have killed a home invader. And you will tell them, ma'am, we're gonna have to come down to the station. ⁓ Detectives are gonna need to talk to you.

you know, to even say, you have an attorney? know, ⁓ law enforcement isn't the evil that some people think. There are some cops that aren't as good up to standards as, you know, everywhere else. But again, think of how you will politely refuse to talk because if it does go to trial, do you want the interrogating or detective officer or the officer on the scene to testify? I read them the rice, asked them if they would like to.

tell me what went on and they said, I'm not saying a darn thing or et cetera. What's the jury gonna think? But if you say, I'm terrified, I'm scared, I've never been in a situation like this, I was scared, I thought I was gonna die, I gotta talk to an attorney. Comes across a whole lot better to the officer as well as to the potential jury. So maybe establish the active dynamic, I had to defend myself.

I would probably say there's the gun, the bad guy had, there's some evidence, there's maybe some witnesses, officer. You know how serious this is, understand. You understand it. And I intend to cooperate once I talk to an attorney. And another thought is if they go to the police station, which they probably will, if not to be interviewed, get a statement, et cetera, with or without an attorney.

You know, if you have to call home because your spouse, wife or husband is you're late, they want to know what's going on. Remember those lines are recorded too. tell your spouse when you get your concealed carry permit or open carry, whatever your state may be. Just tell them, look, if I ever have a matter and I call you, the wife will immediately want to what happened. Just, hi honey, I'm at the police department. There was a matter.

I had to defend myself, I am fine. I'm calling you, I'm fine, I can't tell you anything else. As soon as I can talk to you again, I will. But the phone's in the jail, the phone's in the detective's offices or interview rooms, they're all recorded. I think that's another good reason to have your significant other go to training with you, even if he or she doesn't, Gary, understand that academic dynamic. One more question, what do you think about...

trying to couch the question with any bias, but a concealed carry holder that has a card in their wallet. That's what they're going to read to the officer. That's the script. Well, that's you've just nailed it. That sounds like a script. OK, sorry. didn't. That's my question. And you know, are there criminals who have been coached? been in trouble so much they know what to say or not to say. Absolute.

And so if you have this, my first thought with my experience would be you have some type of self-defense insurance and they provided you this card. Okay. ⁓

To me, if it's flowing natural, I'm scared, I'm upset, I think that's gonna be a whole lot better if it goes before a jury or even a judge. Well, your honor, this card is evidence, because when I asked them what happened, they handed me this. To our attorneys, it can go either way. The jury may go, oh, well, okay, that makes sense. Or they may go.

was this really a self-defense shooting? Because you were awful prepared. It just raises a lot of questions. Sure. OK. Thank Well, Glenn, I really appreciate you stopping by the booth today. Again, you have two more seminars left today. You have the Armed Citizen, How to Interact with Law Enforcement, and Leosa Procedures and Considerations for the Agency and Firearm Instructor. And that'll be the wrap up your busy weekend. ⁓

Anyway, appreciate you. in the area, come on by. Love to see you. Come on by. are 1230 to 130 and three to four. It should be B311. think it is. sounds correct. B311, level three. That's correct. Both seminars are at that location. All right. Sounds good. Well, thanks again, Glenn. I really appreciate you stopping by to be on the Forge of Freedom with us today. Thank you very much.